This on the grounds that should such a secret pact be signed and should there be a lead and the existence of this secret pact or agreement become known it would seriously weaken the actual pact. Therefore, her counter-suggestion was that as there would naturally be meetings between the two nations should such a pact be consummated, the matter of deciding what to do against what country should be left until such a moment, and no binding pact modifying the overall treaty be signed. Q. General, we have been talking about Ribbentrop’s views and we have been talking about the views of your Government. I am wondering with respect to how you personally felt about the matter. A. I felt it was simply a question of the approach and that the bridge between the two ideas could be easily built. Q. Actually, General, you were there on the ground and you knew Ribbentrop well; you worked very closely with him; were you not as a matter of fact firm in your feeling that the ideas that he advanced were probably the more desirable? A. I could not go so far as to say that. Q. How far can you go? The other answer seems to me to be extremely general. I want to know what you personally felt. A. I repeat that I felt that there was no basic difference; it was simply in the means to be followed. And then arose the problem of what type of treaty or agreement would suit both nations. In order to draw up a plan that would be satisfactory to both Japan and Germany, two men from my Embassy by the names of USAMI and TAKEUCHI met with GAUS from the German Foreign Office and drew up various plans. None of these was entirely satisfactory to either the German or Japanese Governments, but I was continuously trying to find a bridge over which the two might come together and meet. I believe, although, of course, these were only my own thoughts, that Germany began to get suspicious that Japan was attempting to weaken the treaty by a separate secret pact, of which she might in turn inform certain nations of the proposition. Japan on her part might have felt that Germany as attempting to drag her into matters outside the ken of her interests. -3-